Just today I was telling an Israeli soldier that their problem (as in Lebanon) is that Israel is too nice….America would never have been as “nice” as Israel is…

My points are that Israel is hardly perfect but it does much more than others to minimize civilian casualties and if they used the larger 2000 lb bomb when they have been using the smaller SBU 39 250 lb bomb they must have had a legitimate reason for using the larger bomb. Wouldn’t you agree, Craig?

David, I wasn’t aware Israel was using that bomb already… I thought it was still in development. I don’t think the US has even used it yet, but I might be mistaken! It sounds like a good design for use in an urban setting. In American terminology, that would be called a 250 pound bomb… just an FYI. We use the overall weight, not the weight of the explosive.

I haven’t commented before on the things you’ve said here, simply because I think you go too far with the cheerleading for Israel. That’s your prerogative but I can’t with a clean conscience criticize the other side for propagandizing and one-sided presentations and then turn a blind eye to what you’ve been doing. No offense intended… I assume you are Israeli, so being partisan is perfectly understandable.

Read my comment again. I did not call Rayyan a loving father, I did not lament his demise. I simply questioned the necessity of using such intense firepower on a home in a densely populated area. Of course keeping ammo in his house could only increase the damage. However, I maintain my point that a ton of explosives is excessive for the terrain in question. That is the issue being addressed in the above exchange between Craig and myself.

Further, I have made clear and regular denouncements of terrorism and behavior like Rayyan’s. That doesn’t change by having a logical and measured conversation about responsible use of force. Disagreeing with a tactic on the Israeli side is not the same as supporting suicide bombings or thinking Rayyan was a good father. If you liked my posting, you clearly read that I’ve openly criticized Hamas and the violence they engage in. In the conversation above, I in fact mentioned Rayyan’s training of suicide bombers. Of course that is sickening. He clearly was a legitimate target – I am not disagreeing with that, nor have I suggested otherwise.

We could beat this horse into the ground for days – and some of your contributions are only enhancing my point: for example, if the IDF knew that this was a weapons warehouse, all the *more* reason to use smaller explosives – after all, the place is going to be obliterated with even less help!

At this point, the “why don’t you criticize Rayyan” is a circular dialogue – one that can only sidestep an important conversation about responsible use of force. I think I speak for many when I say that criticizing a dead man is a less useful way to spend our time then trying to minimize the civilian deaths on both sides.

I’m stepping away from this dialogue, but you can feel free to comment on my site if you like.

Best,
Raquel Evita Saraswati

http://www.raquelevita.com

“Defense officials said a one-ton bomb was used to attack Rayan’s home, and that weapons stored inside set off secondary explosions.”

Thus it would appear that the secondary explosions by keeping his family in a weapons warehouse contributed to their deaths. The weapons warehouse was probably far in excess of the 2000 lb bomb in explosive force.

“A lecturer at Gaza’s Islamist University, Rayan, 49, had mentored suicide bombers… ”

“He was also an outspoken advocate of renewing suicide bombings against Israel.”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733139262&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

“The IDF said it had called the house before the strike and warned the family to leave.”

So, it would appear there was the warning and the family did not leave.

“Rayyan’s house, the IDF said, served as a weapons warehouse and as a Hamas communications center.”

“Rayyan was both the director and the financier of the 2004 terror attack at the Ashdod port, which killed 10 Israelis, and in October 2001 he sent his son to perpetrate a suicide attack in the Gush Katif settlement Elei Sinai, where two Israelis were killed.”

Rayyan was a wonderful human being and loving father. Even after the shooting starts he leaves his family in a home that served as a weapons warehouse: an obvious military target. Instead of criticizing Israel for using a 2000 lb bomb, why not criticize Rayyan for leaving his family in a building he knew would be bombed because it served as a weapons warehouse?

Rayyan is such a loving father to send his son to blow himself up in a suicide attack killing other innocents. What a fantastic example to the Palestinian people….such love, such caring about others…

Aren’t you sickened by this man and by Hamas sending the dozens of mothers with babies to a location that Israel said it would bomb in 30 minutes? Doesn’t this sort of behavior demonstrate to you that these people are not fit to govern? Does this only sicken me or does it sicken others?

Best,
RES

“In the absence of any new statement, many have recalled Mr. Obama’s remarks last July in the Israeli town of Sderot, where he implicitly recognized Israel’s right to respond militarily.

“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters.”

“Asked whether sending troops into Gaza was a mistake, the vice president replied that “it’s important to remember who the enemy is here,” adding, “You haven’t had a conflict between two U.N. charter-member states, you’ve got a U.N. member state being attacked by a terrorist organization.””

“Leading Democrats, including Senators Harry Reid of Nevada and Dick Durbin of Illinois, both of whom appeared on programs on Sunday, have also expressed support for Israel. “I think this terrorist organization, Hamas, has got to be put away,” Mr. Reid said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.””

As is usual, the Palestinians have brought disaster upon themselves. For whatever reason, they elected a terrorist organization to be their leadership and now they are paying the price. How can anyone blame Israel for the Palestinians choosing to elect a terrorist organization to govern them. Clearly the Palestinians are at fault for causing what has happened to them today?

“Does that implore Israel to recognize that a 2,000 pound bomb is more than is needed to hit one legitimate – and small – target in an area densely populated with those who should not be targets?”

This is part of the comment I put on the “Israel is the Opium of the People blog post.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456505080&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

“The GPS-guided GBU-39 is said to be one of the most accurate bombs in the world. The 113-kg. bomb has the same penetration capabilities as a normal 900-kg. bomb, although it has only 22.7 kg. of explosives.”

“Palestinians reported that they received phone calls to their cellular phones and landlines from the IDF. The phone call, the Palestinians said, conveyed a recorded message ordering the immediate evacuation of homes that were next to Hamas infrastructure or being used by the terrorist organization.”

So, you see, Israel is only using 50 lb bombs, not 2000 lb bombs *and* they are calling people up ahead of time. Since Israel is using the 50 lb bombs if for some reason they used a larger bomb it must be because the 50 lb bomb would not solve the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-39_Small_Diameter_Bomb
“The SDB carries approximately 50 lb (23 kg) of high explosive”

Meanwhile, as I explained in an earlier post which nobody has yet answered, when Israel called one house which had weapons in it giving a 30 minute warning, Hamas intentionally send dozens of mothers and their babies to the bomb site. It is pretty clear that people that would intentionally send dozens of mothers and their babies to a location which Israel that Israel is planning on bombing in 30 minutes are monsters that don’t care about their own citizens and yet nobody has commented on this in the blog post. Would somebody please explain how Palestinians could allow such people to lead them?

You call this disengagement?

I guess I thought I wasn’t being political

You stated yourself that a bomb of this size is excessive for such a small and specific target. I presume that you’d agree with me, then, that this was in fact excessive?

Yes. I also assume that was a pre-planned mission, not one that was called in by a forward observer. I don’t know why the Israelis chose a 2000 pound bomb for that mission. The US took out Zarqawi with a 500 pound bomb, and I’m betting we wanted him dead as much if not more than the Israelis wanted Rayyan.

It is incidents like these that make it very hard for even me to discuss this conflict in a balanced manner.

I understand.

After all, Gaza is densely populated, and it is a remarkably small area. The targets are miniscule – rocket launchers in neighborhoods, specific buildings, police stations. Given the destruction a 1-ton bomb brings with it, how can I be convinced that a sincere effort is being made to reduce civilian casualties? Wouldn’t it make sense to at least try and save face by using the smaller power, all the time, for this terrain?

No, not necessarily. The larger bombs would still be chosen for targets out in the open. An explosion in open air is a lot less lethal than one in an enclosed space… something to do with the concussion being amplified (don’t quote me on that because I’m not an engineer). I don’t know about you, but I’d rather Israel used the big conventional bombs instead of cluster bombs, against targets that are outside in the open.

I’m going to read up on Rayyan now. You’ve got me curious what was going on with that. I just skimmed the article I read, the day it happened.

You call this disengagement?

Sorry to have puzzled you. I’m not all that aware of how air combat works, but allow me to clarify that I’ve got my big-girl pants on for this one: Nizar Rayyan, a senior Hamas leader, was killed when a 2,000 pound bomb was dropped on his family home. The home was located in a refugee camp.

You stated yourself that a bomb of this size is excessive for such a small and specific target. I presume that you’d agree with me, then, that this was in fact excessive? You’ll note that I am not lamenting Rayyan’s demise. He encouraged suicide bombings and the murder of civilians. Rather, I’m both lamenting the death of the civilians this overuse of ammo took with it and the illogic of using such force to target Rayyan. It is incidents like these that make it very hard for even me to discuss this conflict in a balanced manner.

A further question for you: your rundown of “technical details” provides me with additional clarity. I appreciate that. Given the information you yourself have provided, don’t you think that it would never make sense for combatants to be flying with such enormous firepower? After all, Gaza is densely populated, and it is a remarkably small area. The targets are miniscule – rocket launchers in neighborhoods, specific buildings, police stations. Given the destruction a 1-ton bomb brings with it, how can I be convinced that a sincere effort is being made to reduce civilian casualties? Wouldn’t it make sense to at least try and save face by using the smaller power, all the time, for this terrain?