Agree with your criticism of the court verdict on virginity. Disagree on the citizenship.

Now, in what seemed a desperate bid to outdo the damage of the virginity verdict, the judicial system swung so far back they scored an own goal in the case of Faiza X, the woman deemed too “submissive” to be French.

Regardless of the stated reason (I’m not going to do the research to find out the facts on my own) I’d guess that the woman and her family are considered too radical to be granted French citizenship. They probably think a woman who wears a niqab will raise militant radical children. And they don’t want such people to be citizens of France. This is their right. Every nation has a complete and unrestricted right to decide who should be granted citizenship, and who should not. They don’t even need to prove anything. They don’t even need to allege anything. All they have to do is assert that they feel somebody is undesirable. If a majority of French nationals feel the criteria for citizenship is inappropriate, then it will be corrected internally via democratic processes. For outsiders to attempt to interfere is violating France’s sovereignty.

Hey, just curious, but if I showed up in speedos at a Saudi citizenship hearing (which they don’t even have, right?) what would happen to me? Best guess? I won’t even mention the fact that as a Christian I can’t even apply for citizenship there, speedos or not!

I agree absolutely with craig re both cases. France’s sovereignty involves protecting itself and maintaining internal security. So i hope they do not go back on their decision re niqab

Well, now French law is French law. I can understand them not wanting citizens who are as culturally non-French as the woman described… though I wonder if the ruling would also be applied to the men in this household.

Female virginity has never been especially valuable to me. I’ve “been with” one virgin and an unspecified number of non-virgins over the years. I cannot say that I noticed any difference.

That said, if in fact a woman represented herself as a virgin to a potential husband who placed obvious value upon that state of being, and she was not actually in possession of an intact hymen, I’d have to say that there was no “meeting of the minds” and therefore no contract.

Now, so far as I am aware, if contract law is to be applied here, the examination of the “merchandise” should have been performed before the contract was “consummated”. The Gypsies in Europe regularly employ older women to assure virginity to a prospective husband and his family. Yes, its silly and obsessive, but if the culture in question holds these values, who am I to pass judgment? You liberal folks routinely tell us not to be judgmental, do you not?

I have little respect or use for a woman who will lie to her husband or prospective husband about anything. A propensity for telling lies, to me, at least, is far more important than whether or not she’s been “done” before.

“Instead of going after the men who abuse the system — the husband in the virginity case and the men in Faiza X’s life to whom she was described as being in total submission — the immigration officials picked on her.”

How is this abuse of the system and how do you propose the immigration officials “go after” the men? The one man did not represent himself as a virgin and the other(s) was not applying for citizenship. How is it the government’s business to tell anyone how to run his/her household? Europe has too much of that already and America is too far along that road as well. I don’t need or want a “telescreen” in my house with an observer to tell me I can’t deny video games to a child or make him do dishes.

French courts and bureaucracies are trying to deal with problems that are far outside anything they have traditionally and routinely handled in the past. Somebody somewhere would have been upset in either case no matter what the decision or the rationale used for them. What would you have them do?

The citizenship issue is a case of “tough luck”… an influx of people practicing a radical form of Islam such as described would adversely impact French society. Its already too late as the horses have already left the barn… but the logic is still valid.

The virgin bride issue should have been settled in a religious setting as it is a religious contract, so to speak. What happens now? Well, if I were her, I would dump the religion that was used against me and marry a Westerner who couldn’t care less about a fragile membrane that can only be “used” once.

If there was ever any question what sorts of things the West fears from Muslims… these are two answers.

Great article Mona I really feel that Muslim women are in a no win situation and regarding the hymen debate…I do think you should have pointed out that it is not a necessary indicator of her virginity. Many women are born without a hymen or tear it whilst engaging in other activities such as sport, using tampons etc.. Whilst others may be sexually active and still have their hymens intact as somne women are born with ‘stretchy’ ones. I think it is essential to get rid of this stupid myth that seems to decide a woman’s worth.

There is a more balanced non-French interview with her here :

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/europe/19france.html?ex=1374206400&en=379852c61e89388e&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

I will never defend the niqab which embodies the utter negation of a woman’s identity and is at the heart of radical Islamists’ hateful views of women.>>

Not sure why a self proclaimed feminist wouldn’t support a choice that so many women make for themselves. Instead of just viewing a veiled women one can actually still view a woman. But I know that is far out for some. Really a few yards of cloth doesn’t limit a woman, it is rather the attitudes placed upon her. Be it her dominating husband.. or westerners who are so scared of her extra clothing they make assumptions about her and her abilities.

Shame on France

Yes deeming someone not french enough is a deesicion that should be left to the french government and no one else!!!

But I’m here to address the right wing/evangelical ‘saudi factor’ that is a tattooed talking point on the craniums of said evangelicals. Yes saudi arabia is a theocracy and as a muslim I’d like to keep it that way???? I guess the person that brought up the subject forgets that The Vatican as well as Israel are both governed by ‘the will of god.’ But they choose to pick on Saudi Arabia

Israel has a concept called Aliyah please familiarize yourself with it mr speedo!!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

I mostly agree with Craig, especially in the citizenship case.

In fact, Faiza X denied women’s right to vote and other fundamental rights a democracy like the French one is built upon. Her man would not have been granted citizenship either if he stated something like that.

And that is what a democracy is built upon: That laws can’t be bent – even if it seems fair.

Of course, France – as any other country – should work against men who deny their womens’ or children’s rights. But in this case Faiza X. has to accept that you cannot become a democracy’s citizen without accepting yourself as a citizen – with all your rights and duties.

essam,

I guess the person that brought up the subject forgets that The Vatican as well as Israel are both governed by ‘the will of god.’ But they choose to pick on Saudi Arabia

Jews were not mentioned in this article. Muslims were. As for the Vatican, it’s not a REAL country, you know

I like how you called me an Evangelical though! That means I get to call you a jihadi now, right? lol

Oh, and Essam, would you rather talk about the naturalization processes in some other Muslim countries? Can a Palestinian become a naturalized citizen in Lebanon? Can a Jordanian woman pass on citizenship to her children? So many issues to address, and so little time! We don’t need to restrict it to Evangelicals in speedos.

apples and oranges Craig you know very well that the right of return is the reason why none (palestinians) have been naturalized. And as for other countries with not so inviting naturalization laws, Switzerland comes to mind. But i digress, one can argue that european countries are obliged to have somewhat inviting immigration policies to compensate (blow back) for their 19th/20th century exploitation of africa and asia.

Besides our petty dictators and disgruntled monarchs never asked for the world’s tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free!!!!!!

Besides our petty dictators and disgruntled monarchs never asked for the world’s tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free!!!!!!

Neither did the Europeans. In fact, the US was referring to Europeans with that statement.

But i digress, one can argue that european countries are obliged to have somewhat inviting immigration policies to compensate (blow back) for their 19th/20th century exploitation of africa and asia.

Well, go ahead and “argue” that, then.

apples and oranges Craig you know very well that the right of return is the reason why none (palestinians) have been naturalized.

Fine. Whatever. So why are there so many Palestinians who have US (and European) citizenship? Did they lose their right to return? Now you make excuses for Arab governments.

“So why are there so many Palestinians who have US (and European) citizenship? Did they lose their right to return?”

You answered your own question, they lost their right to return once the were granted a European or American Citizenship. Do you think the Americans/Europeans are going to make a case for the return of their Palestinian citizens to Israel?

As for the immigration policy, sorry we don’t have low birthrates nor do we need to brain drain other countries to compensate for our problems. We just need to stop Europe and America from depleting our own workforce.

jhr2g3j4h24,

You answered your own question, they lost their right to return once the were granted a European or American Citizenship.

Maybe somebody should tell them that, then? Because Palestinians with US/European citzenship are absolutely the LOUDEST when it comes to their right to return.

http://umkahlil.blogspot.com/

That blogger, for instance. Go tell her she has no right to return, ok?

Do you think the Americans/Europeans are going to make a case for the return of their Palestinian citizens to Israel?

Americans and Europeans aren’t ever going to push for a Palestinian “right of return”, regardless. That’s an Arab agenda, and Palestinians are being held as perpetual refugees in Arab countries precisely so that agenda can be kept alive and well. 60 years. And how many more? Why?

As for the immigration policy, sorry we don’t have low birthrates nor do we need to brain drain other countries to compensate for our problems. We just need to stop Europe and America from depleting our own workforce.

Lol. Yeah, boot all the South Asians and East Asians out of the ME and sing me that song

‘Maybe somebody should tell them that, then? Because Palestinians with US/European citzenship are absolutely the LOUDEST when it comes to their right to return.’

Want loud Craig———–AIPAC,

What’s the point being loud without a megaphone?!?!?!? and AIPAC is one loud megaphone a lobby group and a foreign agent all rolled up into one ….

What’s the point being loud without a megaphone?!?!?!? and AIPAC is one loud megaphone a lobby group and a foreign agent all rolled up into one ….

Well, stop whining about it and set up an Arab lobbying group… one that isn’t CAIR! You trying to tell me that 300 million Arabs with all that oil can’t out-lobby a few million Jews who live in the smelly armpit of the middle east? I don’t think so!

Iran has had great success with NIAC. They aren’t AIPAC yet, bet they are getting there.

Anyway, we’ve wandered far off topic so I’ll be quiet now

Hi Mona.

Your article, ‘A hymen, a veil and France’ indeed casts a shadow over a lot of things Western progressive countries like France stand for. Having said that, I am also interested in knowing what did the Moroccan woman and Faiza X do after these bizarre verdicts came their way. I agree that their cases prove the point however it will also matter what level of the judiciary did these verdicts emanate from. The higher it goes, the more serious it gets.

I do not intend to enter into the futile exercise of comparing France with India. But there is a point to be made. It was in May, last year, that the Supreme Court of India put a stay on a lower court’s outrageous decision to attach the properties of noted artist MF Hussain. The lower court was hearing a freak petition by a fundamentalist and had passed the order since Hussain did not appear despite summons. So even though the lower court dished out its decision, Hussain approached a higher court and fortunately, put to rest something so outrageous.

Any word on that?

I posted two articles on Muslim virginity at Ethnic Ashkenazim Against Zionist Israel:

Muslim Virginity, Times Front Page

Albanian Virginity, Times Front Page

The message was not just to Muslim women, but to all Muslims. Your ways and principles are not those of France. If you don’t like France, go back to your own country. I hope this is the beginning of a new, hard and honest attitude with Muslims. Being nice and accommodating has given the West nothing but millions of people that have brought hate and violence. Tolerance is a two way street.

Unless Muslims start respecting others and treating their minorities the way they want to be treated, we should not only not accept them but be very vocal about our dislike for their customs, manners and even their religion. I have read the Quran and I am shocked by the hate and violence. I have read the hadith and they are even worse. Do not the hundreds of pages about attacks, raids, plunder, murder, conquest, enslavement of men, women and children, rape, and mistreatment of women mean anything to Muslims?

Perhaps, maybe, who knows, the Quran and ahadeeth explain the violence so common among Muslims and the lack of human rights in Islamic societies — or maybe it is just that Islam means peace and Muslims are misunderstood. Take your pick. I vote for the first theory.

The woman has no place in France and yes, France should also go after the Muslim men (including the husband) and send them back also.

Mona, I have followed your work for years, but the problem is not just “radical Islamists’ hateful views of women” – it is much deeper and the much more serious.

Kactuz

I think some of the commenters missed the fact that Faiza is married to a French citizen and has three kids born in France. So if her husband is keeping her in submission and that prevents her from gaining citizenship, why is HIS citizenship not being revoked? Isn’t HE the one who “adopted a radical practice of…religion incompatible with the essential values of the French community, notably with the principle of equality of the sexes”?

That is what I think Mona is referring to when she said France is picking on Muslem women.

The Quran preaches chastity for men and women, but the ultra-conservative obsession with women, sadly prevalent in many Muslim countries (and the lack of a male hymen) means only women are expected to abide by the prohibition on extra-marital sex. This obsession with virginity is shallow at best and deadly at worst.

First of all, the French case was about contracts, not virginity. You’re smart enough to realize that, but I guess the case easily lends itself to polemical arguments about virginity. The French court made the right decision in that case. If the roles were reversed and she found out her husband had an intimate girlfriend, or (for example) misrepresented his ability to provide for her, that too would be a valid grounds for annulment.

This has a biological basis and is universal, not just in Muslim countries. Men are genetically (not just culturally) conditioned to feel sexual jealousy much more strongly than women do. If they think their mate has slept around, they will have less paternal certainty and thus be instinctually less willing to take care of any children born to a woman they are uncertain about. Women don’t feel sexual jealousy as strongly because there’s never a question of maternal certainty– they know the baby is theirs. Instead they select for signs of ability to provide and protect — this is why women are generally attracted to taller and more socially powerful men. Many women in fact look down on virginal males and prefer men who have demonstrated virility.

If men in the West seem to care less about virginity, it is because they get their paternal certainty not via the purity of their wives, but by spreading their seed around more. As a result, anthropologists believe that we’re heading back to the standard mammalian configuration where women raise the young by themselves, with (more socially powerful) males providing the semen but not sticking around for the long run. Hence the dramatic rise in the number of single mothers even though birth control is more widely available than at any time in the past.

I wish it it were otherwise, but that’s the reality of the situation and all we can do is work around it, not just wish for a level playing field. Women should withhold sex without marriage, making it impossible for men to sleep around. And contract law should be enforced rigorously, in the interests of both men and women.