There were technical probs with the comment site so Dale asked me to post this message for him:

I think the Olympics is overly hyped, especially gymnastics and swimming, but I have watched a few events. Thought it was insane to have a “cuter” child lip synch to another child’s voice during the opening ceremony, but it was an interesting exercise in “team work”.

I did not notice that Saudi Arabia had no women competing, though I am not surprised. It will change ultimately, though it may take more time than you’d like. I thought it quite an anachronism that America is their ally. They represent everything that I and most others in America find reprehensible in the Middle East and in Islam.

Dale

Thank you so much for taking interest in this issue.

As a Saudi the treatment of women in my country disgusts me. One point you didn’t mention is that girls in Saudi schools have no physical education classes (except for a few private and foreign schools). Some researchers say that this is a factor in the high percentage of obese and diabetic Saudi women. But I’m very confident that things will change in the near future.

The IOC should ban Saudi Arabia from participating until they allow women to compete. If a country-for example- banned blacks from competing I have no doubt that the IOC will take a far more aggressive action towards that country.

I agree, no more Saudi men should be allowed to go to the Olympics until they also allow Saudi women to go.

I agree with you that IOC should not allow KSA to participate in any Olympics games as long as Saudi women are prohibited by Law. The problem – Mona – is that the world woke up a bit late with regard human rights practice in KSA, mainly because of the power of wealth the Saudi’s used to flag from time to time, to stop any international pressure on their abuse of women’s rights. Unfortunately, Egypt as well is one of KSA’s biggest victims. The singular male culture unfortunately has been widely promoted by a lot of Egyptians influenced by the Saudi way of life, dominated parts of our society, and consequently Egyptian women basic human rights have been seriously marginalized. In sports, Egyptian women are allowed to participate and compete, but the expectations are that they have to cover their bodies with tons of clothes, not to mention veiling, to protect them from the lust of the spectators watching them!!! .. to the extent that they become too heavy to move, and therefore too inefficient to compete. Women have to be given all the right tools – same as men – to compete properly in sports, as for Saudi women let’s campaign for their participation in London 2012 otherwise ban participation of Saudi men.

Abu-Dahim

Thank you for your comment – very good to hear from a Saudi man! And you’re absolutely right – the problem extends to public schools and universities which don’t offer Phys Ed classes. That quote from Habdan was his way of discouraging sports classes in school for girls.

It’s tragic that in order to appease such narrow-minded men, women suffer obesity and diabetes and are barred from sports.

But it is Saudi men like you and women who will change their country. We can only support you from the outside and support you we do!

Thanks for your support, Akinoluna!

And Khaled, yes indeed that ultra-conservative Saudi form of Islam and views of women has most certainly crossed into Egypt along with the Egyptian workers who travel back and forth.

Egypt seems to be swallowing massive doses of Wahhabism. There are areas in Cairo now that remind of my years in Jeddah. The way the men look at me because I’m not wearing a headscarf is eerily reminiscent of how uncomfortable men in Saudi Arabia made me feel.

I agree of course that women should be able to participate in sports. (And isn’t there an event called the Muslim Womens Games which does exactly that?)

At the same time, it’s also true that the Olympics really is a 2-week orgy, as this article published in the Scotsman makes clear. Hundreds of thousands of condoms (for 10,000 athletes) and people having sex out in the open in the Olympic Village– it might as well be the Burning Man festival. Surely this is an area where the rest of world might learn something from the Muslim world? Men’s and women’s Olympic villages perhaps.

The other thing that bothers me about the Olympics is that it’s all about egotism, both at the individual and national levels. China (and other nations) will do anything to show off, including sending in underage gymnasts with fake documents. Doping is rampant. The whole damn thing is nearly meaningless, and will be totally meaningless as bioengineering becomes more prevalent. The Games are fun to watch, but ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether women or men compete there.

Men’s and women’s Olympic villages perhaps.

Please tell us you were only joking, Khalid! Sharia law imposed on the entire world at the Olympics, eh?

Lets count up how many of those condoms the Saudi delegation goes through before we talk about that? Or do you think they brought their own? Halal condoms, perhaps? Maybe we should have spies watching the Olympic athletes to make sure they don’t misbehave?

Craig,

This has nothing to do with ‘imposing Sharia law’, something which you are probably not very familiar with. (No, Saudi law is != sharia law.)

There are girl’s and boy’s schools here in Western countries, and the events themselves are separated pretty rigorously by gender. Many universities have separate dorms for men and women. For good reason.

Separate men’s and women’s villages wouldn’t prevent anyone from competing or even socializing. But it would enable more conservative people to participate, and it would take an edge off of the debauchery. What’s wrong with that?

And why can’t the athletes bring their own condoms? Are they so irresponsible that they depend on authorities to provide for their recklessness?

The whole damn thing is nearly meaningless…

I do agree with you about that, Khalid. This is the first Olympics I’ve watched closely since the 1976 games when I was a kid. Something has happened. I’m not sure what it is, but the games used to seem a lot more… intense. And exciting. Maybe it’s just the way they do the coverage now.

I agree with you about the drugs too. It may not be ONLY drugs, but there’s something going on. In the swimming, for instance, I think every single event I’ve watched has been won with a new world record. Seems like it shouldn’t be that easy to break world records. *shrug*

This has nothing to do with ‘imposing Sharia law’, something which you are probably not very familiar with. (No, Saudi law is != sharia law.)

I may be more familiar with it than you think. In any case, I know enough about Sharia to know Sharia violates basic human rights. In more ways than can easily be counted. Tell me which country allows a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man? Tell me in which Muslim country a Muslim can convert to some other religion, without fearing for their lives? But I’m not here to argue with you about Sharia law, I’m here to point out that trying to impose Muslim norms on the Olympic games is absurd.

And why can’t the athletes bring their own condoms? Are they so irresponsible that they depend on authorities to provide for their recklessness?

Why can’t the athletes bring their own everything? You do know that companies trip over themselves competing for the rights to provide free stuff for the Olympics, right? Wouldn’t surprise me if a condom manufacturer wanted to be the official supplier for the Olympic games as well

Something has happened. I’m not sure what it is, but the games used to seem a lot more… intense. And exciting.

Well, back then, you had competing world ideologies, and the world was a diverse place with many cultures. It was exciting to see it all together, especially with the idealistic eyes of a kid.

Now, however, there aren’t really any higher ideals and there isn’t much real cultural diversity, just the ubiquity of atomized liberalism. While I admire the dedication many athletes put into their training, I also see it as a microcosm of the miserable form of globalization taking place. All that matters is winning/survival/materialistic triumph. Lots of fakery and spectacle and technology, but very little real solidarity. You have a handful of winners, usually the rich, and a mass of losers, usually the poor. And even amongst the winners, there is a lot of misery. The spirituality has been sucked out of it…

I know enough about Sharia to know Sharia violates basic human rights.

As you define them, maybe. I used to believe very strongly in in and even champion generic human rights, until I realized that they aren’t grounded in anything more than whimsical thinking. And maybe your concept of human rights violates other peoples’ conceptions of human rights. I think there are rights that women are entitled to that men do not have, but which modern society fails to recognize.

I’m here to point out that trying to impose Muslim norms on the Olympic games is absurd.

These norms are shared by traditional Christianity and Judaism, and indeed any family-oriented culture.

I agree. But it isn’t “Christian” to concern yourself with how other people (especially adults) choose to live their own lives. Some Christians do believe they have a “Christian duty” to try to impose their version of morality on others, but those Christians haven’t read what Jesus had to say about the matter very carefully

sorry about there italics there! I was trying to quote this part:

“These norms are shared by traditional Christianity”

But something happened.

Jesus, peace and blessings upon him, wasn’t a libertarian. Compassionate, yes, but definitely not a libertarian. He believed in observing and enforcing the Law, just not in a purely mechanical fashion.

Separate villages for men and women is hardly an extreme measure. It is arguably less extreme than having seperate events for men and women, and as I said, there are many examples here in the West where we do regulate gender interactions in some manner. Most obviously, we generally don’t let people have sex in public places, even though (from a liberal perspective) there’s absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. As the article in the Scotsman states, that’s the sort of thing which is known to happen in the Olympic village.

But something happened.
…in some parts of the Western world, religion was overthrown and replaced with a self-centered, narcissistic, nihilistic culture. But there are still many, many traditional Christians. The Catholic Church, the Churches of the South (which now make up the majority of Christians), even in the midwest US; all of these believe religion has a role to play in public life and in gender issues.

Jesus, peace and blessings upon him, wasn’t a libertarian. Compassionate, yes, but definitely not a libertarian. He believed in observing and enforcing the Law, just not in a purely mechanical fashion.

Khalid, I strongly disagree with that “enforcing” part. If that is your opinion, it doesn’t come from Christian scripture.

Separate villages for men and women is hardly an extreme measure. It is arguably less extreme than having seperate events for men and women

How do you figure that!? It would be grossly unfair to force women to compete with men in many sports, and that’s why the competitions are separate. As for the separate villages, you make it sound as if male and female athletes are forced to share the same quarters… I don’t think that is the case. Am I wrong? As far as I know, the athletes have as much or as little privacy as they want. I really don’t know what to say to this except it seems bizarre to me.

and as I said, there are many examples here in the West where we do regulate gender interactions in some manner.

Like public restrooms, yes. But you know what? There are many countries that don’t even do that.

Most obviously, we generally don’t let people have sex in public places, even though (from a liberal perspective) there’s absolutely nothing wrong with doing so.

We don’t let people expose themselves in public, either. What does that have to do with segregation of the sexes?

As the article in the Scotsman states, that’s the sort of thing which is known to happen in the Olympic village.

What? Having sex in public? Well, if they are having sex in public it hardly matters whether their living quarters are separated, does it?

…in some parts of the Western world, religion was overthrown and replaced with a self-centered, narcissistic, nihilistic culture.

I agree with you on that.

But there are still many, many traditional Christians. The Catholic Church, the Churches of the South (which now make up the majority of Christians), even in the midwest US; all of these believe religion has a role to play in public life and in gender issues.

I disagree with you on that. By “traditional” you mean Christians who wished the reformation never happened. Those aren’t “good” Christians. Those are the kind of Christians who used to torture heretics to death, and burn people alive for being sinners. Jesus never intended his followers to be like Christians were 500 years ago. I’m not going to quote scripture at you, but I think you’ve got the spirit of Christianity all wrong.

By “traditional” you mean Christians who wished the reformation never happened. Those aren’t “good” Christians.

1) There are plenty of moderate Catholics nowadays.
2) The Reformation was a violent, bloody affair. The Reformers were not liberal peaceniks! Their actions unintentionally led to a slippery-slope of individualism and non-religiousness.
3) There are options other than Pre- and Post-Reformation.

—
Anyhow, looking at this picture, and also aware of how China is slowly ethnically cleansing some of the Muslim areas of China, I think Mona missed the boat entirely. The Muslim women shouldn’t be in China, nor should the Muslim men. Nor should any Westerner who believes in the most basic human rights. What a powerful show it would have been, if Beijing hosted the games, and the Western and Muslim worlds didn’t show up, the Chinese standing alone on the podiums, with their hollow victories.

Khalid,

Anyhow, looking at this picture, and also aware of how China is slowly ethnically cleansing some of the Muslim areas of China

Your link was about Tibet. Muslims in China live in Xinjiang. Muslims account for less than 1.5% of the population of China. Christians account for only 4% of the population of China. I’ve never seen any evidence that either of these two groups are oppressed any more than anyone else in China is. They may FEEL that they are, because they have less reason to be nationalistic (and Chinese are very nationalistic, believe it or not) but that doesn’t make it so. The communists oppress anyone who opposes them, uniformly. I think somebody is exploiting the Muslim population in China to cause political unrest. That isn’t going to end well for Chinese Muslims, with such a low representation.

Mona! Look what you have done now!

This expression of opinion is all well and good, but it probably won’t bring about any changes by itself. That’s gonna take a bloody internal revolution. Somehow, I don’t see that happening in a closed society like that of the magic kingdom any time soon.

I especially like the comments implying that George Bush should “do something” about it. What should he do? How should he do it? No US president has the power to set policy in a foreign nation, and well that he should not! These things are up to those in power there and those who are willing to take power in order to affect changes. If they aren’t willing to fight and possibly die for the changes they want, i.e.: freedoms, then they do not deserve them.

Separate Olympic villages for males and females? Gimme a break! The idiots who contend that males and females cannot live in the same housing facility are just that…. idiots. Years ago, I lived in a building that was sex-segregated. The change came when female soldiers moved into the top floor. We all survived the changes, though I did see a naked woman once by accident.

So far as I am aware, there is no prohibition for any athlete to seek other lodging and no requirement for them to reside in the Olympic village. Let those who wish seek other lodging and pay for it themselves.

Now, Mona’s original premise that the IOC should enforce its own charter… that should be self-evident.

More here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4582421.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1